Tuesday, April 6, 2010

3rd part الجزء الثالث ---مع الامام محسن هندريك

Muhsin Hendricks is a sheikh who lives in South Africa. In 1998, he found Al-Fitrah, the first queer Muslim organization in his country.

Muhsin also differentiates between homosexual love and homosexual sex. Does this refer to a platonic homosexuality?

I was differentiating between the homosexual relationship based on love and mutual respect vs. a homosexual sexual encounter based on lust, which can include sodomy/pederasty/bestiality and male-to-male promiscuity.

Love, affection, care, muhabbah, mawaddah or whatever you wish to call it; these are all human emotions which has no gender, or is not confined to a specific sexuality, so anybody can show love and affection to anybody and everybody else, if the meaning of love is fully understood.

In Islamic countries the holding of hands and hugging of men is quite an acceptable form of expressing love to the same sex. The Nabi (s) use to sleep on the lap of Abu Bakr (r.a). The mystical poet Rumi had a deep loving relationship with Shams and when Shams eventually departed, he poured his heart out in poetry expressing his undying love for Shams.

The examples of same sex love is endless in the Islamic world; and I am not for one minute suggesting that all these are of a homosexual nature. I'm simply asking the question. Why is it so horrific and frowned upon when homosexuals display this kind of affection, yet not knowing whether those people are involved sexually or not? Are they not worthy of expressing their love to the same sex?

Another example of how prejudice our Muslims are, is the question of Zina. It has become quite an excepted thing in our society and it is even "rectified" by our Thursday night must marriages. Yet the Quran orders them to be flogged with 100 stripes without compassion for them, and the punishment should even be carried out in public. But when a homosexual only says: "I am attracted to my same-sex, without acting upon it", the whole city condemns him.

Some man said to me a few days after my article was published in The Argus: "Yes, I understand your point, but why let the whole world know about the fact that you are attracted to the same sex." I didn't answer him. A few lines down his rhetoric. He recons: "Gees, in the fast the only thing on my mind is women", and he was quite comfortable in saying this.

So it seems to be okay for the heterosexual to tell the world about his sexual fantasies, but the homosexual must shut up. So attempts are even made to control the thoughts of a homosexual. If this is not prejudice, then I swear the pope is Jewish.

As regards to a platonic homosexual relationship, I have no problem with that. I haven't found enough evidence in Islam to prohibit such a relationship, based on love and friendship. So I believe that a homosexual relationship, if any, should stay platonic as far as society can see into your life. Whatever happens beyond that, is entirely a matter between the parties involved and their Creator.

How does one counsel homosexuals, with the aim to bring them back to heterosexuality or to accept their sexual orientation?

Again another prejudice, thinking that homosexuals need to come back to heterosexuality. It's pointless sending someone to the Antarctica to sell ice, so why try to take a person to a sexuality foreign to him.

So the only other alternative would be to assist the homosexual on to a sexuality that he is comfortable with, and teach him the ethics around that sexuality, and if he eventually goes back, (as you say) to heterosexuality, then he was'nt homosexual in the first place.
Studies have been made to determine the success rate of conversion counseling, which is a therapy designed to convert homosexuals into heterosexuals.

We had therapies such as: Recovered memory therapy, Multiple personality disorder treatment, There were also professionals who believed in Satanic ritual abuse which they claimed helped the vast majority of their clients recover memory of childhood Satanic ritual abuse, i.o.w they were believed to be "dukumed".

There is also Therapeutic touch therapy in which is believed that they can heal people by balancing energy patterns in their patient's body.
And then there are many other forms of aversion therapy / reparative therapy, that are now forbidden for psychologist to practice, simply because of its ineffectiveness. The need for accurate information on the long term results of reparative therapy is obviously of great importance.
So most therapists today counsel their clients to improve their self- esteem and accept their orientation as a fact of their lives.

The American Psychological Association publishes an undated brochure titled "Answers to Your Questions About Sexual Orientation and Homosexuality." They state:

"...many scientists share the view that sexual orientation is shaped for most people at an early age through complex interactions of biological, psychological and social factors."

"...psychologists do not consider sexual orientation for most people to be a conscious choice that can be voluntarily changed."
"...homosexuality is not an illness, mental disorder or emotional problem."

"There is no evidence indicating that homosexuals are more likely than heterosexuals to molest children."

The American Medical Association (AMA) released a report in DEC-1994 which calls for "non-judgmental recognition of sexual orientation by physicians." They suggest that psychotherapy be directed to help homosexuals "become comfortable with their sexual orientation."

The Academy of Pediatrics and the Council on Child and Adolescent Health have also stated that homosexuality is not a choice and cannot be changed.

These are the views of skilled professionals who have done extensive studies and experiments on the subject. So if we still feel that we cannot accept their findings as authentic, then we really have to come up with something more substantial, if we still believe that homosexuals can be converted to heterosexuals, instead of mere emotional rhetoric.

How should Muslims respond to homosexuality?

We need to change our perception on homosexuality and get rid of the stereotype that a homosexual is a sodomite and that every homosexual is sexually active.

I don't think Muslims should respond to the subject at all if they haven't made the effort to inspect and understand it first. The very first command to the Nabi (s) was to read and to study.

A thorough study on the subject will then give us a basis from where we can make judgements. But to solely judge a situation on the basis of emotions is un-Islamic.

We need to then be open to debate about the subject and deal with it in a very rational way, especially because its a sensitive subject and because we are dealing with people, who have feelings and souls. As the Quran says:
"udh'u ilaa sabeeli rabbika bil hikma, wa mou'idhatil hasana, wa jaadilhum bil latee hiya ahsan."

"Invite to the path of your Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching, and employ means of discussion that are best."

Often people who deal with the subject irrationally and emotionally are probably the people who fear that they will have to question the authenticity of their own sexuality.
We must remember that homosexuality is not a condition unique to a specific kind of people. It can be your closeted father, brother or son. And just think of the hurt and the harm you are causing them with your insensitive remarks about homosexuals. And by doing this, instead of helping them to find themselves, you are pushing them further away into a life full of misery and inner turmoil.

I think the road ahead regarding the acceptance and understanding of homosexuality is still long, but if we allow ourselves to be open to things we do not understand, and not merely closing up because we are not comfortable with the subject, then I think we will be on the road to enlightenment as to what our purpose in life is and where we fit in, in this whole grand cosmic plan of Allah.

What qualifications do you have to make assumptions that Homosexuality is allowed in Islam?

We are products of secularism, that's why we ask questions like this. None of the messengers of Allah had PhD's. Yet they made such an impact on the lives of nations. I'm just an ordinary person who did an independent study on a controversial subject such as homosexuality, which I think is a subject many so-called "straight" Islamic scholars are too reluctant to take up.

I have four years of basic Islamic Education behind my back, done at the Islamic University of Karachi, Pakistan, I have a good command of Arabic Grammar, if I may mention this, that in my second year of Arabic I had 99% for Arabic grammar. I think my limited studies in Islam has given me the necessary knowledge to deal with independent study on controversial issues such as Homosexuality.

Also Allah says in the Quran: "those who study the book as it should be studied, those are the ones who truly believe in it"

What does Islam really say about Homosexuality according to you?

The word "homosexuality" does not appear in any original form in any Arabic dictionary, nor does it appear in the Quran. There are new dictionaries that have included the word into its list, but these words are constructions.

The word "Sodomy" does not appear in the Quran either. It is a word, deduced from the story of Sodom and Gomorrah , (which is open to interpretation). If you look at some Arabic dictionaries, they have the word "liwaat" to mean both "sodomy" and "homosexuality" and there is clearly a big difference between the two.

So the Quran refers to Sodomy yes, but not to Homosexuality as a perverted sexuality. The only verse that speaks out against Homosexual promiscuity is the one in Sura 4:16 but it does not condemn Homosexuality as a form of sexuality.

Is Homosexual sex permissible in Islam?

To go on to a question of this nature is a bit premature, when people are still struggling to understand the definition of homosexuality.

Sex is a private issue and I prefer it to stay that way. When it is publicly witnessed, it becomes punishable for both homosexual and heterosexual.

I am not here to prove a sexual relationship between two men lawful, each one needs to take responsibility for their own actions but whenever his/her actions, has negative repercussions on society, they need to be reprimanded.

Is a Homosexual marriage permissible in Islam?

Marriage in Islam is a contract, just as any other business contract with conditions that needs to prevail before such a contract can be valid.

Marriage as prescribed by the Prophet Muhammad (p.b.u.h) is an institution for heterosexuals.

To view a homosexual commitment of whatever level of intimacy, in the same light as a heterosexual marriage is preposterous and an insult to the Islamic system of jurisprudence.

Homosexuals have commitment ceremonies, in which the two parties contract to share their lives and sometimes belongings with one another. If this is a long term agreement, it needs to be documented as the Quran instructs.

If two homosexuals want to have a bondage of intimacy, based on love and loyalty with each other, I do not have a problem with that, as long asit is not viewed as synonymous to a heterosexual marriage.

To what extent this relationship goes, within a confined space (non-public) is entirely a personal matter.

The Quran says: "If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, take the evidence of four reliable witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or Allah ordain for them some (other) way. If two men are guilty of lewdness punish them both, If they repent and amend, leave them alone, for Allah is oft returning, Most Merciful." Quran 4:15&16. Is this not proof enough that homosexuality is not permissible?

No. It is proof that homosexual promiscuity and public indecency is punishable. This Aayah is not to be used as a blanket condemnation for homosexuality.

In the case of Heterosexual sex, when Allah says:

"Wa laa taqrabu zinaa Innahu kaana faaghishatan wa saa'as sabeela"

"Do not come nigh to adultery, for it is an indecency (lewdness) and an evil way indeed." Surah 17:32 and

"Az-zaniyatu waz zani fajlidu kulla waahidim minhuma mi'ata jalda, wa laa ta'gudkum bihima ra'fatun fee deenillahi in kuntum tu'minuna billahi wal joumil aaghir wal yash-hadu adhaabahuma taa'ifatum minal mu'mineen."

"The male and the female guilty of lewdness, flock each of them with a hundred stripes and do not let compassion move you regarding them, if it is you believe in Allah and the Last Day. And let a party of the believers witness their punishment." Surah 24:2

Here the Quran refers to heterosexual promiscuity and public indecency. Would we use these verses as a condemnation for Heterosexuality?

Muhsin Hendricks is a sheikh who lives in South Africa. In 1998, he found Al-Fitrah, the first queer Muslim organization in his country.

2nd PART الجزء الثاني ---مع الامام محسن هندريك

Muhsin Hendricks is a sheikh who lives in South Africa. In 1998, he found Al-Fitrah, the first queer Muslim organization in his country.

What is Islam's position on homosexuality?

Firstly I need to reiterate that Orthodox Islamic scholars still view Homosexuality and Sodomy as one and the same thing. When Muslims think homosexuality, they think sodomy. So often, Ahaadith and Quranic Aayaat dealing with sodomy will be quoted to support the argument against Homosexuality.

Homosexuality is a state of being and is not necessarily acted out sexually and publicly by every homosexual in an explicit form such as sodomy. So the Islamic viewpoint in terms of Usul-ul-Fiqh and Shariah, on this case is, that if the person has an evil thought (assuming now for a minute that homosexuality is evil), will not be punished until those evil thoughts are put into action.

So there is no basis in Islam for punishing or condemning a person who admits he/she is homosexual. It is when the act of sodomy is committed, with witnesses proving that the actual penetration has taken place (according to some Ullema), then a punishment according to the degree of indecency should be meted out to the parties involved. Also when a homosexual is admitting without witnesses that he was guilty of sodomy, he can also be punished.

One other important fact we need to take cognizance of is that not every heterosexual is a rapist, and not every rapist is a heterosexual. Similarly not every homosexual is a sodomite, and not every sodomite or child molester, is a homosexual.

There is also the other misconception that the punishment for sodomy is more severe in Islam than the punishment for illicit sex committed by heterosexuals.

The Quran says regarding Zina:

"Az-zaniyatu waz zani fajlidu kulla waahidim minhuma mi'ata jalda, wa laa ta'gudkum bihima ra'fatun fee deenillahi in kuntum tu'minuna billahi wal joumil aaghir wal yash-hadu adhaabahuma taa'ifatum minal mu'mineen." Surah 24:2

If two people of opposite sex are guilty of illicit sex, they should both be flogged with 100 stripes and you should not be moved by compassion regarding them, if you call yourself a true believer… and the actual punishment should be executed publicly.

On indecency of a homosexual nature Allah says:

Wal laati ya'teenal faaghishata min nisaa-ikum fastash-hidu alayhinna arba'ata minkum. Fa'in shahidu fa'amsikoo hunna fil buyoot gattaa yatawaffaa hunnal mout au yaj'allillahu lahunna sabeelaa.
Wallathaani ya'tiyaanihaa minkum fa'dhoo humaa fa'in taaba wa oslaha fa'ridhu 'anhumaa . Innallaha kaana tawwaabar raheemaa.

"If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, you must produce four reliable witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, then they should be confine to houses until death do claim them, or Allah ordain for them some (other) way.

If two men are guilty of lewdness, both of them should be offended, insulted or injured (not punished as the Yusuf Ali translation has it). (Here the kind of reprimand is not defined.) If they repent and amend, leave them alone, for Allah is oft returning, Most Merciful." Quran 4:15&16

So from these Aayaat it is clear that the punishment for Zina is more severe and defined, than the punishment for sodomy, or homosexual public indecency.

And I stress I am in no way supporting any form of indecency be it of a hetero- or homosexual nature. I am merely pointing this out to show how prejudiced we as Muslims have become of homosexuals, whom we still perceive to be sodomites and how in our bias treatment of homosexuals we have even overlooked Quranic injunctions.

Homosexuality has increased rapidly or is discussed more openly in today's society. What do you ascribe the growth to?

I think it's a fallacy to believe that homosexuals are on the increase. There have always been homosexuals, since time immemorial. It is only now that society is becoming more tolerant of the subject and homosexuals given certain rights in the country's constitution, that there are more homosexuals feeling safe to come out of the closet.

In the first year of my involvement with the gay community I discovered that there is a closeted homosexual in almost every second Muslim household. So if we believe that homosexuality is brought about by a condition (such as a domineering mother and a passive father, too many sisters in the house, a broken family etc.), then there is then we really have to treat the cause of homosexuality and not the homosexual.

On the other hand there is a moral decay of society and the argument is that, because of this, there is an increase to the number of homosexuals. Not true. The decadence of society has affected homosexuals as well as heterosexuals. It has affected homosexuals in the sense that they have become more freely flamboyant and obscene especially around the gay clubs and the gay villages.

It has affected the heterosexual society in that promiscuity, sexually explicit entertainment, pornography and other related indecencies have become a more tolerant one. At least the advantage, I think, homosexuals have in this is that they hardly make illicit children, like heterosexuals, rather they would like to be given the right to adopt them, when heterosexuals through them away.

And finally I don't think that a disturbed family life, or a broken home has much to do with the increase in homosexuals. These kinds of issues, only add to the insecurities that most sensitive homosexuals already have to deal with.

How often are people truly gay vs. merely confused about their sexual orientation?

People are confused about their sexual orientation quite often. I would not be doing so much counseling if they weren't. There are a number of factors to be considered here.

As we know, a minority group is always prejudiced and marginalized by a majority group, in almost every situation. And because we're dealing with a sensitive and very personal issue such as sexuality, homosexuals feel it deeply. This creates a lot of instabilities for most homosexuals.

And as if that is not enough, we still have on the other hand, the heterosexual society's insistence that homosexuals need to conform and be reverted to heterosexuality as if they've been all along naturally heterosexual.

Religion also plays a major role in the perception of the self. So if there is the belief that homosexuals are cursed by Allah and condemned to hell, you can well imagine the negative impact this has on the minds homosexual and how dejected they would feel in the assessment of themselves.

I also believe that the insecurities around homosexuals make them more prone to promiscuity, than those homosexuals who've made peace with themselves and their Creator. This acquired promiscuous nature is accompanied with a lot of guilt, self-resentment and disillusionment with love and life.

So, all these factors play a negative and an opposing role in the homosexual's search for true love, understanding and the search for himself.

I would say that the true homosexual is the one who has gone through the processes of discovering his true sexuality, has dealt with the prejudices of society and has made peace with himself and his creator.And this path to me is spiritual and it reminds me of the saying of Nabi Muhammad (s) when he said:

"Man arafa nafsahu, arafa rabbah"

"He who has discovered himself, discovered his creator."

And this is pretty much what my counseling and the support groupsessions are all about, to help the homosexual to find his true self and the purpose for which he was created, in order that he may become more Allah-conscious.

There are homosexuals though that are not truly gay, like the pathological case and as I said previously, this type of homosexual can be helped, not necessarily to become heterosexual, but helped to find his true sexuality, whatever it may be for him.

Muhsin, you say your being homosexual does not mean that you cannot practice Islam. Please explain, given the fact that conventional Islam prohibits it.

As I mentioned previously, homosexuality is a state of being. It does not necessarily flow from it that the person is sexually active. I also mentioned that the act of sodomy (witnessed by four) or willful admittance to the act, is the punishable thing, and not being homosexual. When a sexual act happens in privacy ie: A man having anal sex with his wife, promiscuity amongst heterosexuals or homosexuals, then these matters cannot be judged by a human court of law, simply because there is no evidence. Such a matter is between them and their Creator and does not make the parties involved non-Muslim.

So I am very much of a Muslim when I adhere to the five pillars of Islam and guard against sexual indecency. There are those Muslims who deliberately do not fast, or perform Salaah, thus destroying the very basis of their faith, but they are comfortably accepted as Muslims.

Yet the Nabi (s) said:
" Man taraka salaatahu faqad kafara"
"He who has left his Salaah has become kafir."

I think we need to get our own priorities straight before we go off condemning others, especially those that are different from us.

Allah also says in the Quran:

"La tahkumu wa laa tuhkam"
"Do not judge and you will not be judged."

الجزء الاول ---مع الامام محسن هندريك

انا معجب كثيرا بهذا الشخص ..وتفانيه وشجاعته في ابداء اراءه بطريقة محترمه ومقنعه..ممكن ان تكون شهادتي فيه مجروحه بحكم انه يساند قضيتي انا ايضا..ولكن لنترك الحكم لكم في قراءة المقاله التاليه

By Muhsin Hendricks

What is Homosexuality?

The majority of Muslims still believe homosexuality is something that people do; that it is a chosen preference. They believe it is a disorder caused by poor parenting, which can be overcome through therapy and prayer. However homosexuals and psychologists believe homosexuality is something that people are; it is a pre-determined orientation that is normal and natural for them, just as heterosexual orientation is normal and natural for heterosexuals. It is fixed and unchangeable, perhaps genetically determined like gender and race.

Homosexuality is a broad spectrum of psychological, emotional and sexual variables in a state of interplay between people of the same sex. So it is not only sexual attraction between people of the same sex, it also involves the emotions and strong feelings of love and intimacy.
There are also different degrees in which homosexuality can be experienced.

A lesser kind of homosexuality is of a psychological nature, i.e.: the tendency to cling to the same sex for comfort simply because that kind of relationship is non-threatening, and the cause of such behaviour is i.e.: child-molestation and commitment phobias. This is a kind of homosexuality that can possibly be treated psychologically.

Then there is a placid form of homosexuality, in which there are strong bonds of affection displayed, but sexual activity is partial or non-existent.

The more common form of homosexuality is the one in which there are strong bonds of affection displayed along with sexual activity, which in itself could vary from person to person.

Then we have the more extreme form of expressing homosexuality. This kind could be seen as exaggerated and destructive, examples are same sex orgies, sex-toys & pornography. And while on the question of the definition of homosexuality, it is quite interesting to note is that there is not an original word for homosexuality in the Arabic dictionary, which indicate that homosexuality is relatively new to Arabian culture, and some older dictionaries would regard sodomy and homosexuality as one and the same thing, which is an absolute fallacy, because sodomy is something you do, while homosexuality is a state of being.

Do you believe that Homosexuality is a genetic or conditioned behaviour?

This is pretty much a subject with which psychologists have been grappling for a long time and there were quite a diversity of theories on the subject, until recently in July 1994, when the American Psychological Association released a Statement on Homosexuality. Their first two paragraphs read: (and I quote):

"The research on homosexuality is very clear.

Homosexuality is neither mental illness nor moral depravity. It is simply the way a minority of our population expresses human love and sexuality. Study after study documents the mental health of gay men and lesbians. Studies of judgment, stability, reliability, social andvocationaladaptiveness all show that gay men and lesbians function every bit as well as heterosexuals. Nor is homosexuality a matter of individual choice.

Research suggests that the homosexual orientation is in place very early in the life cycle, possibly even before birth. It is found in about ten percent of the population, a figure which is surprisingly constant across cultures, irrespective of the different moral values and standards of a particular culture.

Contrary to what some imply, the incidence of homosexuality in a population does not appear to change with new moral codes or social mores. Research findings suggest that efforts to repair homosexuals are nothing more than social prejudice garbed in psychological accoutrements. (unquote) (paraphernalia, bits and pieces)"

I think this statement has brought about some sort of closure to the debate on nature versus nurture, and it is now generally accepted amongst psychologists that homosexuality is more natural than acquired, and definitely not a choice and cannot be changed, and that aversion therapy or reparative therapy could cause more harm than alleviating the so-called "problem of homosexuality".

What is important to me, and to most people dealing with therapy, is that we need to build the self-esteem of the individual, help him to accept himself/herself for who they are. What techniques do we employ in terms of supporting that person?

One other thing we have to internalize is that homosexuals don't choose to be homosexuals, be they genetic or conditioned homosexuals, just as heterosexuals don't choose to be heterosexual.

I think the amount of innocent homosexuals out there having endless nights of crying and praying for help, are proof enough that this is a dilemma that cannot be overcome. So they need to be supported by society. And what makes it more difficult is that society is shouting out to them in a very prejudice way: "I cannot accept you because you are not like me."

Saturday, April 3, 2010

مجلات مثليه

اهلا يا حلويين

من خلال تصفحي للانترنت وقعت على مجلتين مثلييتين تصدران باللغة العربيه. الاولى من المغرب والثانيه من لبنان. اعتقد انها خطوة في الاتجاه الصحيح نحو التعريف بالمثلية وايضا مناقشة المواضيع المتعلقه بالمثلية من خلال خبراء متخصصين

لن اطيل عليكم وهاكم الوصلتيين للاطلاع على المجلتين ..وانتظر تعليقاتكم على المحتوى لكلتا المجلتيين

مجلة حلم:

مجلة مثلي:

Friday, April 2, 2010

كيف تحاور؟؟ ومن تحاور؟؟

بسم الله

انا مثليي من الخليج عندي وجهة نظر...انت لست مرغما او مجبرا على ان تتقتنع بوجهة نظري ولا ان تتبني افكاري سواءا كنت مثليا او مغايرا. انا لا اكرهك ولا اطالبك ان تغير افكارك..وانت في المقابل لست وصيا علي وعلى عقلي..ولا يحق ان تفرض علي وجهة نظرك.

يمكنك ان تنصحني ان كنت تظن اني مخطئ ..او تناقشني في افكاري من منطلق اننا نحن متساويين في الحقوق والواجبات..لا ان تناقشني من منطلق انني انا المذنب الفاسق اللمنحط اخلاقيا ..وانت تناقشني لتهديني سواء السبيل وجادة الحق والطريق المستقيم. انا اعندي اعتقاد دائم ان الحقيقه نسبيه..ولا توجد هناك حقيقه مطلقه (واا كانت موجوده فلا يحق لي انسان ان يتبنى فكرة انه هو مالك هذه الحقيقه المطلقه)..معرفة الانسان وعقله هو نتيجة تراكمات عقلية وعلمية تزداد او تنقص مع مرور الزمن. وافكاره قابلة للتغير مع المعطيات الجديده (انا ارى ان الانسان المنغلق عقليا هو من يعتقد انه لا يوجد هناك معطيات جديده في هذه الحياة يمكن ان تغير تفكيره)..الانسان منا عليه واجب البحث والركض وراء المعلومات الجديده..انا اسف ولكن لا اعتقد ان الانسان يجب ان يتوقف في مرحلة معينه من حياته ويقول لنفسه (انا وصلت لقناعتي ..وليس هناك المزيد من المعرفه يمكن ان يغير افكاري )..نحن في هذا العالم سنظل نركض وراء الحقيقه دائما حتى تخر نفس من حياتنا.

حسن..ما هي مناسبة هذا الموضوع؟؟ في الةاقع انامشترت في مجموعه في الفيس بوك اسمها (الثوره من اجل حقوق المثليين في العالم العربي)..وهناك احد الاخوة الكرام..يحاول ان يناقش .وهذا من حقه طبعا..ولكنه يعتقد جازما انه هو على الحق المبين وانا على الضلال المقيم....حسنا تنا تقلت هذا ايضا..ولكن المشكلة ان اي دليل انتي به او ما اعتقد تانه حقيقه علميه..يقابلني هو انها ما هي الا كذبه وانه لا حقيقه لما اقول..وان الكتب الموجوده على الانترنت ما هي الا اوهام لاصحابها..وانني لا حق لي مناقشته في القران وتبيان له وجهة نظري..وبالاخير بيقول لي ..انا هنا لاناقشك نقاشا علميا؟!!!!!

يعني بالله عليكم ؟؟ ماذا تفعلون مع عقليلت كهذه.؟؟ صدق القائل..حاورت العاقل فغلبته وحاورت الجاهل فغلبني..